In Episode #487, Eric and Neil discuss how to learn copywriting when you suck at writing. Tune in to learn that you don’t have to be an expert writer to be a copywriter. Focus on overcoming objections and solving problems. They also shares books, tools, and helpful resources.
Time-stamped show notes:
- [00:28] – Today’s topic: How to Learn Copywriting When You Suck at Writing
- [00:43] – If you suck at writing, it doesn’t mean you can’t do copywriting to compel people to take action.
- [01:00] – Read Persuasion by Robert Cialdini and The Boron Letters by Gary Halbert.
- [01:53] – Neil is great at copywriting, but not writing. He learned he doesn’t have to be the best writer from Frank Kern.
- [02:26] – You just need to be able to answer the customer’s objection.
- [02:43] – Survey your visitors and find their objections. Use SurveyMonkey or any survey tool.
- [02:49] – Find out why people aren’t converting and answer those objections in your copy.
- [03:08] – Solving people’s problems will make them much more likely to convert.
- [03:27] – AppSumo is based on sending emails. Neville Medhora from Kopywriting Kourse helped Noah Kagan build AppSumo.
- [03:37] – You have to have good copy when sending emails.
- [03:58] – Also check out CopyBlogger and the podcast from John McIntyre and Ben Settle’s emails.
- [04:15] – When looking at copywriting think of the concept of Seinfeld emails: talking about nothing or the story of your day and weaving in your offer.
- [05:14] – Conversion rates are 1 to 3 percent. To get people to convert, you have to create multiple ways to help your customers convert into buyers.
- [06:29] – Talking to people and presenting information in the right scenario can also help with conversion.
- [06:41] – That’s it for today!
- [06:45] – Marketing School is giving away a 90-day FREE trial to Crazy Egg which is a visual analytics tool. Go to SingleGrain.com/giveaway to get your FREE copy.
- [06:53] – You can also learn how to win a one-year subscription to Crazy Egg.
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The post How to Learn Copywriting When You Suck at Writing | Ep. #487 appeared first on Marketing School Podcast.
Full Transcript of The Episode
Speaker 1: Get ready for your daily dose of marketing strategies and tactics from entrepreneurs with the [inaudible 00:00:08] and experience to help you find success in any marketing capacity. You're listening to Marketing School with your instructors, Neil Patel and Eric Su.
Eric Su: Welcome to another episode of Marketing School. I'm Eric Su.
Neil Patel: And I'm Neil Patel.
Eric Su: Today we're going to talk about how to learn copywriting when you suck at copywriting.
Neil Patel: Or writing more so.
Eric Su: When you suck at writing, how do you go about copywriting? We actually just talked about this on the stage recently when we did our conference. The first thing I'll say before I take it to Neil is if you suck at writing ... I think a lot of us suck at writing, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can't do copywriting. There's a lot of copywriters out there that are terrible when it comes to things like grammar. They might have an editor, but they know how to write copy that compels people to take some kind of action.
I'll recommend two books for you right out the gate. Read the book Persuasion by Robert Cialdini. It talks about getting people to take action. It gives a lot of case studies. They've done thousands or hundreds of case studies out there and you're going to learn the art of persuasion.
The second thing is you want to read The Boron Letters. This is from Gary Halbert, a well-known copywriter. He wrote this to his kid when he was in prison. These are a bunch of letters he wrote. You can see it's well formatted, it's very simple. You don't have to be a genius to know copywriting. It's just writing. Here's the funny thing. The fact that he was in prison, it just meant he was so good at marketing that he used it for maybe some things that are maybe a little too sketchy and he got in trouble with maybe the government, the FTC or whatever it is exactly. So check it out. It's not something a lot of people talk about, but if you want to get better at copywriting check those two things out first.
Neil Patel: With me personally, I'm terrible at writing and I have a lot of grammar problems, right? So spelling, grammar, I'm not the best writer. I didn't do that well in English in school or journalism or anything like that. I did well in math, science. Anything that was English related, I just tanked at, but I learned this from Frank Kern.
Frank Kern, who's an amazing copywriter, he ended up telling me ... He's like, "Neil, you don't have to be the best writer to do well. Instead, what you need to do is answer objections." So when people come and they don't buy from your site why don't they buy? They usually have a reason. They don't like the product. They don't like the service. The price may be too high. They don't trust you. They don't know if it answers or solves their problems and gives even the solution that they want. They're not sure what they're buying. They have a list of reasons why they're not buying and converting.
Survey your visitors using SurveyMonkey or [inaudible 00:02:45] or any survey tool out there. Figure out why people aren't converting. Take the most common reasons and answer those objections within your copy. See, being a copywriter isn't about being the smoothest person out there. It's about answering objections. If you can answer objections and solve people's problems within the copy you make and feel comfortable, they're much more likely to convert.
That's the trick about being an amazing copywriter. So don't just focus on your writing abilities and your writing skills. Focus on getting to the point, building rapport with people, and answering people's objections.
Eric Su: Great. What I'll also add ... I'll keep things tactical from my perspective, but Neville Medhora, he helped Noah Kagan build AppSumo. AppSumo is now a $10,000,000 a year business, but their business is really based off of sending emails, and you have to have good copy when you're sending out emails in order to get people to take an action.
Neville Medhora, he has a site called kopywritingkourse.com. It's spelled with Ks. The only reason is because he couldn't get the domain Copywriting Course with Cs, so Kopywriting Kourse, KK for both of these. Check that out, and also go to copyblogger.com. There's just a lot to learn from there. Then there's also some podcasts.
There's one podcast from a guy named John McIntyre and I think there's another guy named Ben Settle. You should check out his emails. He writes really good emails. He sends an email every single day to try to get someone to take an action.
The final thing I'll add is if you're looking at copywriting you also have to think about ... Well, I just tied it in with emails, right? When you're sending emails, think about the concept of Seinfeld emails. Seinfeld emails ... I've actually never watched the show. I don't think I've ever seen an episode in my life, but the concept of Seinfeld is that it's talking about nothing. You talk about nothing.
So think about your day, right? There's always a story with your day. For example, when I had to deal with the Sheraton cancelling the hotel room, my toilet being broken, whatever it is, there's always ... You always have a story in your day, right? So talk about your story, but at the very end think about how you can weave in your offer or whatever action you're trying to get somebody to take. Those are Seinfeld emails. You can send them every single day and you can talk about nothing, but still eventually weave it back into your story.
I remember actually I wrote something about how terrible American Airlines is. I just talked about nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, just how bad it is, and at the very end I was like this is why you need to hire great people, because you can't have bad customer service, blah, blah, blah. Then people ended up buying the hiring course. So Neil, I'll take it back to you.
Neil Patel: Yeah. Even if you're an amazing copywriter you're lucky if five out of 100 visitors who come to your website convert into customers. That's on the high end. Most realistically one or two or maybe three out of 100 are going to convert into customers. Because people aren't going to convert, or most of the people aren't going to convert, you have to create multiple pages and sequences and ways for them to become customers.
Think of it this way. If someone comes to your page and you have their email address and you know they bounce after like five seconds, they don't really read your copy. You could end up emailing them, put a lot of the information in the email, and then convince them to come back and buy. You've got to create different scenarios and for each type of scenario you have to create copy that can help those people convert into buyers.
For example, someone could read all of your copy, spend 10 minutes on your web page, and not convert. That's a long amount of time. You could end up emailing those individuals and being like, "Hey John, I notice you went to the page, you read everything, but you didn't convert. What's wrong? Is there anything I can help you with? I know this solution can help you and I'm not trying to force you. If it's not a good fit for you that's fine, but I would love to hear why you didn't end up converting into our customer."
Just talking with people and creating different scenarios based on what the user and their interaction is, you can convert way more of these people into customers, so copywriting isn't always about being smooth or answering objections. It's also about presenting information in the right scenario.
Eric Su: Great. That's it for today. Hope you enjoyed it. We have a 90 day free trial of Crazy Egg to give away to each and every one of you. That's a heat mapping tool to help you grow your business. Just go to [inaudible 00:06:50].com/giveaway to learn more, and you can learn more about how you can actually win a one year annual subscription to Crazy Egg, so we'll see you tomorrow.
This session of Marketing School has come to a close. Be sure to subscribe for more daily marketing strategies and tactics to help you find the success you've always dreamed of, and don't forget to rate and review so we can continue to bring you the best daily content possible. We'll see you in class tomorrow right here on Marketing School.
Eric Su: Welcome to another episode of Marketing School. I'm Eric Su.
Neil Patel: And I'm Neil Patel.
Eric Su: Today we're going to talk about how to learn copywriting when you suck at copywriting.
Neil Patel: Or writing more so.
Eric Su: When you suck at writing, how do you go about copywriting? We actually just talked about this on the stage recently when we did our conference. The first thing I'll say before I take it to Neil is if you suck at writing ... I think a lot of us suck at writing, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can't do copywriting. There's a lot of copywriters out there that are terrible when it comes to things like grammar. They might have an editor, but they know how to write copy that compels people to take some kind of action.
I'll recommend two books for you right out the gate. Read the book Persuasion by Robert Cialdini. It talks about getting people to take action. It gives a lot of case studies. They've done thousands or hundreds of case studies out there and you're going to learn the art of persuasion.
The second thing is you want to read The Boron Letters. This is from Gary Halbert, a well-known copywriter. He wrote this to his kid when he was in prison. These are a bunch of letters he wrote. You can see it's well formatted, it's very simple. You don't have to be a genius to know copywriting. It's just writing. Here's the funny thing. The fact that he was in prison, it just meant he was so good at marketing that he used it for maybe some things that are maybe a little too sketchy and he got in trouble with maybe the government, the FTC or whatever it is exactly. So check it out. It's not something a lot of people talk about, but if you want to get better at copywriting check those two things out first.
Neil Patel: With me personally, I'm terrible at writing and I have a lot of grammar problems, right? So spelling, grammar, I'm not the best writer. I didn't do that well in English in school or journalism or anything like that. I did well in math, science. Anything that was English related, I just tanked at, but I learned this from Frank Kern.
Frank Kern, who's an amazing copywriter, he ended up telling me ... He's like, "Neil, you don't have to be the best writer to do well. Instead, what you need to do is answer objections." So when people come and they don't buy from your site why don't they buy? They usually have a reason. They don't like the product. They don't like the service. The price may be too high. They don't trust you. They don't know if it answers or solves their problems and gives even the solution that they want. They're not sure what they're buying. They have a list of reasons why they're not buying and converting.
Survey your visitors using SurveyMonkey or [inaudible 00:02:45] or any survey tool out there. Figure out why people aren't converting. Take the most common reasons and answer those objections within your copy. See, being a copywriter isn't about being the smoothest person out there. It's about answering objections. If you can answer objections and solve people's problems within the copy you make and feel comfortable, they're much more likely to convert.
That's the trick about being an amazing copywriter. So don't just focus on your writing abilities and your writing skills. Focus on getting to the point, building rapport with people, and answering people's objections.
Eric Su: Great. What I'll also add ... I'll keep things tactical from my perspective, but Neville Medhora, he helped Noah Kagan build AppSumo. AppSumo is now a $10,000,000 a year business, but their business is really based off of sending emails, and you have to have good copy when you're sending out emails in order to get people to take an action.
Neville Medhora, he has a site called kopywritingkourse.com. It's spelled with Ks. The only reason is because he couldn't get the domain Copywriting Course with Cs, so Kopywriting Kourse, KK for both of these. Check that out, and also go to copyblogger.com. There's just a lot to learn from there. Then there's also some podcasts.
There's one podcast from a guy named John McIntyre and I think there's another guy named Ben Settle. You should check out his emails. He writes really good emails. He sends an email every single day to try to get someone to take an action.
The final thing I'll add is if you're looking at copywriting you also have to think about ... Well, I just tied it in with emails, right? When you're sending emails, think about the concept of Seinfeld emails. Seinfeld emails ... I've actually never watched the show. I don't think I've ever seen an episode in my life, but the concept of Seinfeld is that it's talking about nothing. You talk about nothing.
So think about your day, right? There's always a story with your day. For example, when I had to deal with the Sheraton cancelling the hotel room, my toilet being broken, whatever it is, there's always ... You always have a story in your day, right? So talk about your story, but at the very end think about how you can weave in your offer or whatever action you're trying to get somebody to take. Those are Seinfeld emails. You can send them every single day and you can talk about nothing, but still eventually weave it back into your story.
I remember actually I wrote something about how terrible American Airlines is. I just talked about nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, just how bad it is, and at the very end I was like this is why you need to hire great people, because you can't have bad customer service, blah, blah, blah. Then people ended up buying the hiring course. So Neil, I'll take it back to you.
Neil Patel: Yeah. Even if you're an amazing copywriter you're lucky if five out of 100 visitors who come to your website convert into customers. That's on the high end. Most realistically one or two or maybe three out of 100 are going to convert into customers. Because people aren't going to convert, or most of the people aren't going to convert, you have to create multiple pages and sequences and ways for them to become customers.
Think of it this way. If someone comes to your page and you have their email address and you know they bounce after like five seconds, they don't really read your copy. You could end up emailing them, put a lot of the information in the email, and then convince them to come back and buy. You've got to create different scenarios and for each type of scenario you have to create copy that can help those people convert into buyers.
For example, someone could read all of your copy, spend 10 minutes on your web page, and not convert. That's a long amount of time. You could end up emailing those individuals and being like, "Hey John, I notice you went to the page, you read everything, but you didn't convert. What's wrong? Is there anything I can help you with? I know this solution can help you and I'm not trying to force you. If it's not a good fit for you that's fine, but I would love to hear why you didn't end up converting into our customer."
Just talking with people and creating different scenarios based on what the user and their interaction is, you can convert way more of these people into customers, so copywriting isn't always about being smooth or answering objections. It's also about presenting information in the right scenario.
Eric Su: Great. That's it for today. Hope you enjoyed it. We have a 90 day free trial of Crazy Egg to give away to each and every one of you. That's a heat mapping tool to help you grow your business. Just go to [inaudible 00:06:50].com/giveaway to learn more, and you can learn more about how you can actually win a one year annual subscription to Crazy Egg, so we'll see you tomorrow.
This session of Marketing School has come to a close. Be sure to subscribe for more daily marketing strategies and tactics to help you find the success you've always dreamed of, and don't forget to rate and review so we can continue to bring you the best daily content possible. We'll see you in class tomorrow right here on Marketing School.
